I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
"no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
of an expiration.

This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?

On Jun 29, 9:13*pm, PS > wrote:
> I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
> Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
> was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
> right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
> shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
> mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
> "no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
> the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
> years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
> recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
> of an expiration.
>
> This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
> to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
> FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
> expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
> date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
> operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?

Expiry means expired. My company has two ships we use for R&D, they
are both "Expiry" and had to get a ferry permit. We now half to
reapply for a new cert.

Put it back to stock and try to get you Std ATC back.

aerodyne

>On Jun 29, 9:13=A0pm, PS wrote:
I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that "no
person shall operate... unless condition inspections are done in the
preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future years),
and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be recorded. The
entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
of an expiration.

This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was to
make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The FAA
database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an expired
airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry" date on
the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose operating
limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?
********
Buy the FAA records on the plane and see if it got a new Airworthiness at
some time. If not, you should be able to apply for a new airworthiness
certificate. Try to get them to leave the limitations as they are, but
don't be surprised if you get stuck with the current limitations which
require a yearly program letter, etc.

Not too long after the moratorium came into effect, I was able to get
ammended limitations on one of my gliders to put the gross weight back up
where it had been before the most recent set was issued. Didn't get the
requirement for a program letter. Maybe you can have similar luck.

But as it stands now, in the eyes of the FAA, if your airworthiness
certificate has an expiration date in the past, and you don't have a
subesquent one, your airplane is not airworthy.

Steve

>On Jun 29, 9:13=A0pm, PS wrote:
I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that "no
person shall operate... unless condition inspections are done in the
preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future years),
and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be recorded. The
entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
of an expiration.

This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was to
make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The FAA
database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an expired
airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry" date on
the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose operating
limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?
********
Buy the FAA records on the plane and see if it got a new Airworthiness at
some time. If not, you should be able to apply for a new airworthiness
certificate. Try to get them to leave the limitations as they are, but
don't be surprised if you get stuck with the current limitations which
require a yearly program letter, etc.

Not too long after the moratorium came into effect, I was able to get
ammended limitations on one of my gliders to put the gross weight back up
where it had been before the most recent set was issued. Didn't get the
requirement for a program letter. Maybe you can have similar luck.

But as it stands now, in the eyes of the FAA, if your airworthiness
certificate has an expiration date in the past, and you don't have a
subesquent one, your airplane is not airworthy.

Steve

On Jun 29, 9:26*pm, wrote:

> Put it back to stock and try to get you Std ATC back.

This is likely an imported sailplane for which an approved type
certificate was never available in the US, so there probably is no
"Std ATC" to get back. For example, all Schleicher ASW-20 in the US
carry Experimental, Racing or Experimental, Exhibition special
airworthiness certificates.

Thanks, Bob K.

On Jun 29, 10:16*pm, Bob Kuykendall > wrote:
> On Jun 29, 9:26*pm, wrote:
>
> > Put it back to stock and try to get you Std ATC back.
>
> This is likely an imported sailplane for which an approved type
> certificate was never available in the US, so there probably is no
> "Std ATC" to get back. For example, all Schleicher ASW-20 in the US
> carry Experimental, Racing or Experimental, Exhibition special
> airworthiness certificates.
>
> Thanks, Bob K.

Hey! Don't leave out my beloved Speed Astir!! (Amongst MANY others ;-
p )

Read the certificate....many operators might be surprised to find the
gliders or aircraft they are flying with experimental certificates have
limitations and have expired...hence are illegal to operate...the
certificate and the associated operating limitations were issued to the
owner's aircraft by their controlling agency (FSDO) and can apply to
operations by that aircraft while it is under the jurisdiction of that
issuing agency...when it is sold and moved the certificate and limitations
unless otherwise stated in the same are null and void....
tim

"PS" > wrote in message
...
>I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
> Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
> was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
> right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
> shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
> mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
> "no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
> the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
> years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
> recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
> of an expiration.
>
> This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
> to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
> FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
> expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
> date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
> operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?

On Jun 30, 12:13*am, PS > wrote:
> I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
> Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
> was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
> right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
> shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
> mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
> "no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
> the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
> years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
> recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
> of an expiration.
>
> This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
> to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
> FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
> expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
> date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
> operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?

Reading of text will probably show that this date is 12 months to the
day from issuance.
This requires condition inspection after which it would be good for 12
months to the day.
read the paragrapg related to condition inspection.
Duration, other than that condition, was unlimited and none had
geographical limitations, to my knowledge.
All of that changed when new rules were published effective 7/9/97.
After that time, the current requirements
to be controlled by your local district office, area limitatiions,
etc., went into effect.
DON'T lose your old limitations, you likely would not get them again.
That said, read what the text says and comply.
Good luck
UH

On Jun 30, 1:10*pm, wrote:
> On Jun 30, 12:13*am, PS > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
> > Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
> > was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
> > right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
> > shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
> > mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
> > "no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
> > the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
> > years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
> > recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
> > of an expiration.
>
> > This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
> > to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
> > FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
> > expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
> > date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
> > operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?
>
> Reading of text will probably show that this date is 12 months to the
> day from issuance.
> This requires condition inspection after which it would be good for 12
> months to the day.
> read the paragrapg related to condition inspection.
> Duration, other than that condition, was unlimited and none had
> geographical limitations, to my knowledge.
> All of that changed when new rules were published effective 7/9/97.
> After that time, the current requirements
> to be controlled by your local district office, area limitatiions,
> etc., went into effect.
> DON'T lose your old limitations, you likely would not get them again.
> That said, read what the text says and comply.
> Good luck
> UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thanks UH, I like your interpretation best. I would feel more
comfortable with this if the operating limitations more clearly stated
that a condition inspection would extend the special airworthiness
cert. for another 12 months. Are you saying that since the operating
limitations do not state an expiration, but instead state that
condition inspections are required every 12 months, that this
supersedes the expiration date shown on the airworthiness certificate
(which was one year from the issue date)?? Is there an FAA Order or an
FAA rep. that can clarify this?

On Jun 30, 3:28*pm, PS > wrote:
> On Jun 30, 1:10*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 30, 12:13*am, PS > wrote:
>
> > > I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
> > > Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
> > > was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
> > > right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
> > > shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
> > > mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
> > > "no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
> > > the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
> > > years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
> > > recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
> > > of an expiration.
>
> > > This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
> > > to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
> > > FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
> > > expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
> > > date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
> > > operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?
>
> > Reading of text will probably show that this date is 12 months to the
> > day from issuance.
> > This requires condition inspection after which it would be good for 12
> > months to the day.
> > read the paragrapg related to condition inspection.
> > Duration, other than that condition, was unlimited and none had
> > geographical limitations, to my knowledge.
> > All of that changed when new rules were published effective 7/9/97.
> > After that time, the current requirements
> > to be controlled by your local district office, area limitatiions,
> > etc., went into effect.
> > DON'T lose your old limitations, you likely would not get them again.
> > That said, read what the text says and comply.
> > Good luck
> > UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks UH, I like your interpretation best. I would feel more
> comfortable with this if the operating limitations more clearly stated
> that a condition inspection would extend the special airworthiness
> cert. for another 12 months. Are you saying that since the operating
> limitations do not state an expiration, but instead state that
> condition inspections are required every 12 months, that this
> supersedes the expiration date shown on the airworthiness certificate
> (which was one year from the issue date)?? Is there an FAA Order or an
> FAA rep. that can clarify this?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

To be safe, you could take your docs to your local district office for
interpretation.
That said, you might not like what they say. These days they really
want to control activity on Experimental- Exhibition and Air Racing
licensed ships.
I would be surprised if you certificate is not unlimited, subject to
condition inspections.
UH
I

We have an glider that has gone through the same process.
The original Airworthy Cert was for one year and then it expired, this was
in 1980-1981.
The owner then applied for a new Cert and it has no expiration but it does
require annual "condition inspections" per the glider factory published
maintenance manual and AC43 Apx D.

Just based on what you have provided for information. I would say that your
glider has been flying since 5/5/1984 illegally. I am surprised that all of
the previous AIs signed off the condition inspection without a valid
Airworthy Certification.

Go to www.faa.gov and search for your aircraft records, you can get a copy
of everything the FAA has on file on a CD for about $10 and it takes about
two weeks to process. You can order it on line. I have done this for all of
our aircraft and for aircraft we were looking to purchase but then did not
because we found paperwork or other issues such as an unclean title. A loan
or lien against the aircraft that was never properly released.

BT

"PS" > wrote in message
...
>I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
> Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
> was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
> right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
> shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
> mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
> "no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
> the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
> years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
> recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
> of an expiration.
>
> This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
> to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
> FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
> expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
> date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
> operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?

PS,
I had a similar experience. When I went for my first annual, the
A&I told me I needed current operating limitations for current area.
(glider came from Reno, now based in southern California). (Check Tim
Mara's post). Basically I had been flying illegally for a year. Yikes!
A call to the San Diego FSDO got it solved ASAP. I faxed the Reno
limitations, he used it as a template, and faxed me back ones for my
domicile. Sent me a new airworthiness certificate if I promised to
send him the old one back! The inspector was very casual and
nonchalant about the issue. He said the FAA is very concerned about
high performance Experimental warbirds being flown by marginally
qualified rich folks. Most FSDOs are not at all concerned about
gliders and glider pilots so your paperwork should be a breeze.

Good luck, happy soaring.

Dean

On Jun 30, 1:28*pm, PS > wrote:
> On Jun 30, 1:10*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jun 30, 12:13*am, PS > wrote:
>
> > > I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
> > > Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
> > > was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
> > > right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
> > > shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
> > > mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
> > > "no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
> > > the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
> > > years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
> > > recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
> > > of an expiration.
>
> > > This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
> > > to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
> > > FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
> > > expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
> > > date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
> > > operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?
>
> > Reading of text will probably show that this date is 12 months to the
> > day from issuance.
> > This requires condition inspection after which it would be good for 12
> > months to the day.
> > read the paragrapg related to condition inspection.
> > Duration, other than that condition, was unlimited and none had
> > geographical limitations, to my knowledge.
> > All of that changed when new rules were published effective 7/9/97.
> > After that time, the current requirements
> > to be controlled by your local district office, area limitatiions,
> > etc., went into effect.
> > DON'T lose your old limitations, you likely would not get them again.
> > That said, read what the text says and comply.
> > Good luck
> > UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Thanks UH, I like your interpretation best. I would feel more
> comfortable with this if the operating limitations more clearly stated
> that a condition inspection would extend the special airworthiness
> cert. for another 12 months. Are you saying that since the operating
> limitations do not state an expiration, but instead state that
> condition inspections are required every 12 months, that this
> supersedes the expiration date shown on the airworthiness certificate
> (which was one year from the issue date)?? Is there an FAA Order or an
> FAA rep. that can clarify this?

FAA Order 8130.2Fchg3, Section 10, para 155b
b. Air Racing. Operating an aircraft to demonstrate its flight
characteristics or capabilities in
connection with sales promotions for the aircraft is not considered to
be an eligible operational purpose
under the air racing category. A certificate for experimental air
racing must only be issued when an
aircraft is to be used for valid air racing purposes. The duration of
an airworthiness certificate for
air racing is unlimited.

Group I and ALL apply throughout the order.

Post moratorium aircraft require new operating limitations upon change
of owner or FSDO, but the airworthy should travel, except in some
cases where the prior owner neglected to sign off Phase 1;^)

Frank Whiteley

On Jun 30, 1:15*pm, wrote:
> On Jun 30, 3:28*pm, PS > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jun 30, 1:10*pm, wrote:
>
> > > On Jun 30, 12:13*am, PS > wrote:
>
> > > > I just purchased a glider that has a Special Airworthiness Cert.,
> > > > Experimental Category, Exhibition and Racing. The "Date of Issuance"
> > > > was 5/6/1983, as was the Operating Limitations and log entry. To the
> > > > right of the Issuance date on the certificate is the "Expiry" which
> > > > shows one year later as 5/5/1984. The operating limitations makes no
> > > > mention of an expiration, in fact it has the paragraph stating that
> > > > "no person shall operate...unless condition inspections are done in
> > > > the preceding 12 months" (which would be for the second and future
> > > > years), and it mentions condition inspections (plural) are to be
> > > > recorded. The entry in the log by the same FAA Rep. makes no mention
> > > > of an expiration.
>
> > > > This would have me think that the intent of the FAA representative was
> > > > to make the certificate of unlimited duration as I would expect. The
> > > > FAA database also shows no problems that I can tell, such as an
> > > > expired airworthiness certificate. Is this typical to have an "Expiry"
> > > > date on the cert. or do I have an issue? I hate to lose my loose
> > > > operating limitations by having to apply again. Can anyone explain?
>
> > > Reading of text will probably show that this date is 12 months to the
> > > day from issuance.
> > > This requires condition inspection after which it would be good for 12
> > > months to the day.
> > > read the paragrapg related to condition inspection.
> > > Duration, other than that condition, was unlimited and none had
> > > geographical limitations, to my knowledge.
> > > All of that changed when new rules were published effective 7/9/97.
> > > After that time, the current requirements
> > > to be controlled by your local district office, area limitatiions,
> > > etc., went into effect.
> > > DON'T lose your old limitations, you likely would not get them again.
> > > That said, read what the text says and comply.
> > > Good luck
> > > UH- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Thanks UH, I like your interpretation best. I would feel more
> > comfortable with this if the operating limitations more clearly stated
> > that a condition inspection would extend the special airworthiness
> > cert. for another 12 months. Are you saying that since the operating
> > limitations do not state an expiration, but instead state that
> > condition inspections are required every 12 months, that this
> > supersedes the expiration date shown on the airworthiness certificate
> > (which was one year from the issue date)?? Is there an FAA Order or an
> > FAA rep. that can clarify this?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> To be safe, you could take your docs to your local district office for
> interpretation.
> That said, you might not like what they say. These days they really
> want to control activity on Experimental- Exhibition and Air Racing
> licensed ships.
> I would be surprised if you certificate is not unlimited, subject to
> condition inspections.
> UH
> I- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't know a lot about Experimental Limitations. Mine is an old 1974
version.
But rather than walking into the FSDO cold I would ask around the
local glider pilots or experimental amaetur builders about who to talk
to.
Perhaps a DAR ( I forget exactly what it stands for other than it is
Designated (not FAA employee) person who can issue a new registration)
would be a better option than just walking into the FSDO. Find someone
that has a history of being reasonable to work with. Some FSDO's are
very good
some are less so. So do you homework about what works best in you
local area.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL